alt ZopeWikiDiscussion

A place for general discussion. See also ZopeWikiNews.

A wiki with no discussion is actually quite restful. Maybe we should not encourage it ?


test the waters -- Thu, 08 Apr 2004 11:14:22 -0700 reply
via ZWiki:GeneralDiscussion : "We should be able to get to anywhere in the zope world from there."

Important point. I wish the word "Directory" wasn't so saturated. Where serves as a public example of a project wiki, will may as an organizational (community?) directory. :-) I expect this is intended, correct me if it's off target. I'm interested in seeing ways to encourage the community to search the "local" directory before other resources (google). My expectation is based on content and functionality.

The RecentChanges? link is rather odd: ... all items in the header include the AccessRules? page. :-/

-- DeanG?

NEW ZopeWiki -- Fri, 09 Apr 2004 09:34:10 -0700 reply
Hi all! - Great to have a main wiki for Zope now! Since i experienced the first working project and documentation-by-community wiki which was i wanted to have the same for Zope itself. (Dean, i am not sure if i understand correctly what you mean with organizational (community?) directory) - I imagine of course this wiki to be a place where to search before googling and which has the same weight in daily development as ZopeChat? and MailingLists?.

Two technical remarks -- Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:09:51 -0700 reply
Two technical remarks: (1) ExternalEditor doesnt work for me (my fault?) and (2) in RecentChanges? all pages are always marked with NEW.

Two technical remarks -- Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:38:01 -0700 reply
I think so - ExternalEditor works for me, without login.

NEW indicates pages less than a week old.

BuildingDynamicWebSitesWithZope -- Sat, 10 Apr 2004 09:04:33 -0700 reply
I put several paragraphs from DieterMaurer?`s book BuildingDynamicWebSitesWithZope in ZopeWiki - it's nice to see these articles interlinked and they offer a good intro for each topic, if they're referenced from another article in the future. - i just want to be sure if this is ok for you!? Is this intended for ZopeWiki to become??

ZopeBook refactor? -- Sat, 10 Apr 2004 09:08:36 -0700 reply
Having a direct competition with ZopeBook seems no good. Should we mayeb take the material from the ZopeBook and refactor it into the rest of the Wiki?

... -- Sat, 10 Apr 2004 09:18:03 -0700 reply
Yes. that's what i also wanted to suggest. - It was by chance that i took Dieter's articles half a year ago and put also about ten to fifteen translated to the german DZUG wiki. In fact in ZopeBook there's much more which is suitable to split it for a wiki. - I will have time to check that later/maybe tomorrow - it's necessary to discuss the naming conventions for pages about classes and modules etc. So - just wanted to make a start, so visitors would see what's possible in a wiki.

Oh and - yes - i'll ask Dieter for permission, he also allowed using and translating his texts for DZUG wiki.

Cheers flo

ZopeBook refactor? -- Sat, 10 Apr 2004 11:13:26 -0700 reply
hi guys.. interesting thought. Let's discuss, but I think we should avoid such drastic steps until more people have found their way here. We are just getting rolling. Also the Zope Book is a distinct, maintained high quality body of content that's probably not going away - to dissolve it into the wiki without an agreed plan sounds like madness..

but then good ideas sometimes do. Do you think it would be legal ?

ZopeBook -- Sun, 11 Apr 2004 02:44:02 -0700 reply
I don't know about the legality issue, the ZopeBook is supposed to have very flexible licenses. Chris McDonough? would know, so if we do this we we should mail him first to check. If it isn't legal (which I doubt) it just means we have to write everything from scratch...

The ZopeBook will not go away. This Wiki is not the source of it, Zope Corp is. But a good way to organize a book is not a good way to organize a Wiki.

ZopeBook refactor? -- Sun, 11 Apr 2004 08:43:28 -0700 reply
I agree, that's better to wait with pasting large pages of content until more people joined the wiki and left their footprints here, structured it, put content (from anywhere or self-written) etc. in it. The Zopebook and other guides are good sources to take intros, api and definitions for here and i'd suggest to put a sentence in on the policies pages like "If you're concerned with a certain topic, dont have time to write yourself but know a (public domain) resource like ZopeBook (if it is!) you're encouraged to copy the content to here". ((please correct to proper english)) A person who does so, (1) does the work and (2) feels as a worthful contributor and comes back (IMO).

Legal issues: I suppose the Zope Corp. will allow pasting the content here (at least with a line about the source at the top), anyone should write to them, address see and or contact someone directly. It should be allowed to refactor it - a good way to organize a book is not a good way to organize a Wiki.

WikiMailOut? already enabled -- Sun, 11 Apr 2004 08:46:52 -0700 reply
I see the msg (1 subscriber) at the bottom but no "subscribe" link - is WikiMailOut? already enabled, Simon??

WikiMailOut? already enabled --simon, Tue, 13 Apr 2004 09:35:57 -0700 reply
Not yet, "1 subscribers" is a bug.

ZopeBook refactor --casey, Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:04:14 -0700 reply
I will not address issues of legality, other than to say that my impression is that the book's license is liberal and if it contributes positively to Zope, ZC will have no reason to complain. I would like to add my 2 cents which would be that we should not copy and paste content from the book, much for the same reason you should not copy and paste code around. It merely erodes any chance there ever was of maintaining the content. IMHO people should focus on building this site from the ground up. We can certainly reflect on the book, and especially the comments, and use it as a pattern/anti-pattern. Links are not bad and should be encouraged. You can never have too much documentation. I think this site would be wonderful if it merely categorized and provided links to all of the other existing content. I know it will be more than links, and I love that, but the links are still highly valuable.

Anonymous edits --LennartRegebro, Fri, 16 Apr 2004 01:44:53 -0700 reply
I will here try an lobby for turning anonymous edits OFF. I would love to see the texts I have written be improved upon, even by "anonymous cowards" :) But the fact is that so far all that happens is unexplained edits that make things worse in one way or another. If I knew who it was I could mail them and ask why. Now I can't, so all I do is change it back. And the anonymous person, whoever it is, changes it again. This is just stupid. I know you can fake the e-mail adress, but by forcing people to write something in, at least they aren't anonymous because they forgot (which happened to me).

misc --FlorianKonnertz, Fri, 16 Apr 2004 07:33:17 -0700 reply
ZopeBook refactor, Anonymous edits, ThreadModeVsDocumentMode?, RefactorComments etc.: I should describe detailed what my motivation is when creating pages like ZODB, ZPublisher etc. - Actually I working on this wiki to build THE Zope documentation base, making use from the easiness of editing and linking of wiki. So i try to make the ZPublisher page THE most informative page about that topic in the web: First paste the best description from a book as long as i cant write it better. maybe paste first the main part as long as dont have time to do more. Later extract parts of it, when i am concerned with them. ie. today my fight with the TraversalHooks. Later i stumbled about some ZODB stuff and looked for good intros in it, so i just collected the links on that page. When something comes to my mind or when i know something to say to a new edit i might comment it even if it's ugly. It'll be refactored, (probably by me). Sure it's nicer to have much "more document than thread" on a page, but in case you're looking for an answer, you're thankful if you find a thread about the topic than nothing. I'd suggest to state the usual two weeks to leave a thread alone before deleting it. Same gardening policy could count for copy&pasted; pages. Everybody who pastes text from elsewhere (to a new page) is the PageMaintainer? "by law" and has to care for its evolution and integration in the wiki. If there's nothing to see after some time, others may rebuild the page along their wishes. That's fair, right? At least this was the policy for and i always had the impression of a well working wiki. I definetly go with casey, that people should focus on building this site from ground up - just interpret it that way, it does not mean everything has to written anew. The processes of (1) collecting and categorizing docs and (2) creating a new doc resource must be balanced in longterm (to write a bit philosophically). To summarize the most important thing at the end: The wiki must be valuable at every point in time. Even if it is under construction it hast to be a place where people are attracted to. And they are attracted to other people, to a community and/or to a good doc resource (maybe in different order).

ZopeBook refactor --simon, Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:11:54 -0700 reply
+1 to what Casey said, and Florian too. I think "tie it all together" is easiest and first priority here; and "become the authoritative zope encyclopaedia" is also desirable and barring any disasters, likely to happen! (though I try not to talk about that lest I sound like the wiki zealot :).

ZopeBook refactor --simon, Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:21:48 -0700 reply
PS and what I meant to add: just as with code, the main thing is avoid duplication of effort. Don't Repeat Yourself, etc. Ideally each significant piece of zope knowledge would migrate to one home, whether on the wiki or elsewhere, where it can be refined and referred to. Some duplication might be fine (ZopeBook mirror, etc) but it should be easy to find the latest authoritative doc for any zope topic.

Anonymous edits --simon, Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:37:56 -0700 reply
I'm -1 on requiring editors to enter a username (which can be nothing or changed anyway), at the moment. There are some positives as well as negatives to allowing anonymous edits. Have you seen the discussion around WikiWikiWeb:AnonymousOnPurpose and WikiWikiWeb:search=Anonymous ?

If you're getting persistent destructive edits on a page, please raise it here - I can block by IP address if needed. However it's usually better to tolerate (& fix) a little bit of normal random wiki editing, it will usually stop soon.

packing strategy ? --simon, Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:12:05 -0700 reply
The database is 500M and I want to pack it. I have usually done 7-14 day packs in the past. This will be the first pack since zopewiki started; if you care about preserving all zopewiki edit history, now's the time to jump in with suggestions for how to keep it.

Current assumptions -

packing strategy ? -- Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:59:04 -0700 reply
Had to go for it before I ran out of packing room. 7-day pack, 600->300M. I'll keep the old one around a little longer. I also exported the wiki, I'm not sure if that preserves history.

... --LennartRegebro, Tue, 20 Apr 2004 02:08:43 -0700 reply
I think 7 days of history is fine. And I haven't gotten any destructive anonymous edits during the weekend, so maybe it's getting better. :)

zope-dev comments -- Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:36:20 -0700 reply
Search for ZopeWiki in this thread view

zope-dev comments --simon, Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:32:05 -0700 reply
Excellent thread, thanks. Posting some comments there..

WhatsNewInZope27 ? --simon, Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:21:54 -0700 reply
Someone deleted this.. intentional ? I think we need to restore it ?

Congratulations for your work -- Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:42:00 -0700 reply
First, I would like to congratulate you for starting this. I am begining with Zope and Plone, and this looks like a good place to centralize information. There are some problems, though: uptime is very small for the Zope server, and more important, I don't see a way to contact the webmaster :)

Congratulations for your work -- Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:48:19 -0700 reply
You found one. :) Thank you.

Right, we should probably add that information, at the same time I'm/we're trying to keep the front page simple..

Uptime is small for no very bad reason: zope would like more memory, but that costs more and the site has been running happily as long as I restart it when it nears the limit (every 2-3 hours). Restarts are quick.

Also I'm philosophically inclined to think that it this should all work in less memory, and it probably can, but analysing, tuning the server, shutting out robots etc. takes time. NB the server is running a number of sites, in particular.

Still, I may do something about this soon.

Stuff like this should probably end up archived on ZopeWikiDiscussion.

Top billing at ZopeMag --simon, Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:09:40 -0700 reply
Yay, thanks ZopeMag.

where are the links to free ZopeMag articles and of course ZopeMag Weekly News

"It's-a-wiki.." and "Bah. where is the subscriber access I paid for and never got a response to.. and you suckered me with that not-yet-existing zwiki review way back. And that corner of the field with the black cow belonged to my great-uncle.".

Just had to get that off my chest. Ok, I'm over it. :)

linked ZopeMag articles --simon, Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:57:56 -0700 reply

NEW pages --d2m, Sat, 24 Apr 2004 02:07:57 -0700 reply
Simon: could you provide a listing of "NEW" pages only, and could you provide it in RSS format? if not, i could look into and setup one for you... d2m

NEW pages --simon, Sat, 24 Apr 2004 09:36:54 -0700 reply
Here's a start: ZopeWikiStats. I had these on the front page but unfortunately they are noticeably slow, which surprises me a little.

change default display mode ? --simon, Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:01:47 -0700 reply
Minimal mode seems faster and more consistent in speed right now, though I don't know why. I'm thinking of making it the default as on Pro: presents a simpler, cleaner, faster site to newbies and busy visitors and may reduce robot load. Con: makes the hierarchy and standard site navigation links non-obvious.

change default display mode ? --simon, Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:27:21 -0700 reply
Ack, it hides page rating too. That's no good.

ZWiki:rss2 for ZopeWikiRSS --DeanG?, Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:40:57 -0700 reply
ZopeWikiRSS is currently an RDF version. Would it be simpler if it used ZWiki:Rss2/editform ? Slow i-net for me today, but I'll look into full scoop later.

site outage update --simon, Fri, 30 Apr 2004 12:57:10 -0700 reply
Re the site outages on ZopeWikiNews.. what I'm seeing (since the last week or so) is the zope process (a zeo client) is restarted somehow, such that var/ is no longer correct and nothing appears in the event log, and after this happens zope does not respond to http requests.

Somebody can tell me if zope is different than Knowings's technologie ? -- Mon, 03 May 2004 01:49:27 -0700 reply
Hello every body ! I've just discover the "wiki", somebody can tell me if zope is different than Knowings's technologie ?

Somebody can tell me if zope is different than Knowings's technologie ? --DeanG?, Thu, 06 May 2004 20:06:30 -0700 reply

NEW pages --DeanG?, Thu, 06 May 2004 20:10:50 -0700 reply
d2m, Did you get this going? The Zwiki Rss2 work makes this rather easy by searching on page creation date instead of last edited. That code also only requires a single pass, instead of double in the rss 1.x/rdf version.

ZopeWiki page -- Fri, 07 May 2004 07:24:18 -0700 reply
Is it intentionally blank?

ZopeWiki page -- Fri, 07 May 2004 07:48:55 -0700 reply
recovered, please review.

ZopeWiki page --simon, Fri, 07 May 2004 16:46:45 -0700 reply
Looks good now.

PHP-style examples --simon, Fri, 07 May 2004 16:47:33 -0700 reply
Everyone learning zope wants relevant examples right there in the docs, like the PHP or mysql manuals. Any ideas on this ? How can we do it, short of slowly adding examples to pages ? How can we best leverage ZopeLabs & other cookbooks ?

site outage update --simon, Fri, 07 May 2004 20:04:06 -0700 reply
None of these (unscheduled restart + site hang) for a week. Whatever it was.. it seems to have moved on..

restarts --simon, Tue, 25 May 2004 11:49:25 -0700 reply
I just rolled back an i18n bug, also I have been restarting quite a bit for development purposes. I do it when you're not looking. Let me know if it's too much. :)


sm: "our" wiki..
***ChrisW burps, yeah yeah, you get shot if it's wrong
ChrisW: "we" don't ;-) *

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